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TOPIC: Freedom from the Pain 1694 Views

Re: Freedom from the Pain 25 Jul 2021 03:26 #371162

  • Meyer M.
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starting wrote on 19 Jul 2021 05:57:
Hi Meyer
Glad to hear you are doing well or 'have come a long way'

In the article section of gye under q&a-halacha there is an important 3 part article titled The prohibition of masturbation for men and women which may answer your question

I do want to point out though that in order to know of an issur is min HaTorah you should be checking the shulchan aruch. Simply trying to understand raw pesukim can mislead you as many issurim are hidden in the words, for example, the issur of eating meat together with milk is actually written by repeating the prohibition of cooking meat with milk and the meforahim (gemara) explain that this is to include an issue min HaTorah to eat this together.
So when you read over the material on the issur the first place should be looking is the shulchan aruch

Another point that is important to realise is that onan had married his brothers wife after his brother had died without children and he therefore had a mitzvah to marry her and have a child with her. This (releasing outside her) was the only sin that the passuk mentions in relation to his death

The whole point of yibbum is to have relations with the woman to hopefully produce a child, the part where he pulled out and was therefore only having relations with her for gratification purposes to me looks like the relationship wouldnt be considered yibbum and would fall into the category of a forbidden relationship which is stated black and white in the torah

even when the torah talks about emissions it only says that there is a period of impurity depending on the intention and how many releases there were, it makes no mention of punishment

again I just want to be perfectly clear, I do not endorse masturbation due to its effects

on a side note, technically milk and meat is ok according to the torah, just not a young goat in its mothers milk as according to the passuk, the reason we do not eat any milk with any meat is because it was instituted as a safegaurd the same way we start shabbos early and not at the exact zman. It also says by avraham that he served the angels butter and calf, milk and meat

Basically at the end of the day my point is that there is no direct passuk stating that masturbation is forbidden, the same way you learn it from the passuk of Onan I can learn that masturbation is assur by using the pasuk of kedoshim tehiyu in parshas kedoshim. Its a very general and vague answer with no clear point
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Last Edit: 25 Jul 2021 04:47 by Meyer M..

Re: Freedom from the Pain 25 Jul 2021 16:30 #371178

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The passuk never says they were angels.
Actually, from the passuk you don't even know it wasnt meat and fat.
We know this just like we know why Onan died. 
Even your own explanation of yibum, the gemara has a hava aminah of explaining the pesukim literally otherwise.
If you want an explanation of how we know our understanding of the Torah is what is meant, what makes an explanation valid, and the difference between an inexplicit doraisa and a dirobannan, I'm sure people here can point out good sources. I just don't know if this is the place for the discussion, but then, why not?

Re: Freedom from the Pain 25 Jul 2021 17:17 #371180

  • Meyer M.
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retrych wrote on 25 Jul 2021 16:30:
The passuk never says they were angels.
Actually, from the passuk you don't even know it wasnt meat and fat.
We know this just like we know why Onan died. 
Even your own explanation of yibum, the gemara has a hava aminah of explaining the pesukim literally otherwise.
If you want an explanation of how we know our understanding of the Torah is what is meant, what makes an explanation valid, and the difference between an inexplicit doraisa and a dirobannan, I'm sure people here can point out good sources. I just don't know if this is the place for the discussion, but then, why not?

וַיִּקַּ֨ח חֶמְאָ֜ה וְחָלָ֗ב וּבֶן־הַבָּקָר֙ אֲשֶׁ֣ר עָשָׂ֔ה וַיִּתֵּ֖ן לִפְנֵיהֶ֑ם וְהֽוּא־עֹמֵ֧ד עֲלֵיהֶ֛ם תַּ֥חַת הָעֵ֖ץ וַיֹּאכֵֽלוּ. Thats milk and meat, crystal clear black and white. Now it doesnt say specifically that they are angels but the first passuk in perek yud ches says וַיֵּרָ֤א אֵלָיו֙ יְהֹוָ֔ה בְּאֵלֹנֵ֖י מַמְרֵ֑א וְה֛וּא יֹשֵׁ֥ב פֶּֽתַח־הָאֹ֖הֶל כְּחֹ֥ם הַיּֽוֹם׃ followed by the second וַיִּשָּׂ֤א עֵינָיו֙ וַיַּ֔רְא וְהִנֵּה֙ שְׁלֹשָׁ֣ה אֲנָשִׁ֔ים נִצָּבִ֖ים עָלָ֑יו וַיַּ֗רְא וַיָּ֤רׇץ לִקְרָאתָם֙ מִפֶּ֣תַח הָאֹ֔הֶל וַיִּשְׁתַּ֖חוּ אָֽרְצָה׃ leads us to believe that the men were either angels or god himself depending on the source.

Now the only place in gemara I was shown when I asked this question (I need to find the daf) said that when a person is faced with a path with a beautiful woman and a path without he should take the one without so he should not be tempted. I dont remember this piece 100% so dont take my word for it until I bring its location and further validation. (Even so this piece has nothing to do with masturbation and more likely has to do with having a forbidden relationship)

And if you have a place in gemara that shows a havaah aminah please by all means post it so I can see.

And another point: the rambam himself says the following in a commentary to mishnayos (Sanhedrin 7:4): it can not be punished by court because there is no explicit negative mention of it in the torah
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Last Edit: 25 Jul 2021 17:55 by Meyer M..

Re: Freedom from the Pain 26 Jul 2021 18:21 #371208

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There are no nekudos in the Torah, it's also mesora. Sanhedrin 4. I can't find the yibum one now, it's someone in the beginning of yevamos, (as is the reason Er and Onan died). WHile you are talking gemorah, hows www.webshas.org/ishus/levatala.htm And I see nothing in the pesukim to suggest as you say, and certainly nothing you would have thought if you didn't already know what it meant.

Again, this is secondary to an understanding I also lack of how Torah Shebal peh and drashos work. I would like to learn more when there is time.
Besides this, why does it matter? There are sources it's doraisah, and sources it isn't. But one can lose ones soul and olam habah in things which aren't outright Doraisah. So why doesn't the Torah assur it, or other aveiros chamuros?

Re: Freedom from the Pain 27 Jul 2021 00:47 #371214

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Meyer M. wrote on 25 Jul 2021 03:26:

on a side note, technically milk and meat is ok according to the torah, just not a young goat in its mothers milk as according to the passuk, the reason we do not eat any milk with any meat is because it was instituted as a safegaurd the same way we start shabbos early and not at the exact zman. It also says by avraham that he served the angels butter and calf, milk and meat


As you wrote.. this is totally besides the point...

But its also frankly completely wrong.
What the words of the torah mean in reality, and the way you decide to read them aren't always the same.
There are many rules and guidelines in chazal how to learn out things from pesukim, and that doesn't make them only derabanan. Many times indeed they are actually deoraysa.
Like your example with meat and milk... It is totally forbidden FROM THE TORAH to eat any milk or meat from kosher animals that were cooked together (you can check it up in the shulchan aruch yorah deah siman 87)
Even though that's not what the words say. This is not just a rabbinical safeguard (such as chicken or fowl etc in milk which is only derabanan).

sorry for the rant...
But its the same with the other stuff also.
Hope for the best Prepare for the worst

Re: Freedom from the Pain 27 Jul 2021 01:00 #371216

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Meyer M. wrote on 25 Jul 2021 17:17:
וַיִּקַּ֨ח חֶמְאָ֜ה וְחָלָ֗ב וּבֶן־הַבָּקָר֙ אֲשֶׁ֣ר עָשָׂ֔ה וַיִּתֵּ֖ן לִפְנֵיהֶ֑ם וְהֽוּא־עֹמֵ֧ד עֲלֵיהֶ֛ם תַּ֥חַת הָעֵ֖ץ וַיֹּאכֵֽלוּ. Thats milk and meat, crystal clear black and white. Now it doesnt say specifically that they are angels but the first passuk in perek yud ches says וַיֵּרָ֤א אֵלָיו֙ יְהֹוָ֔ה בְּאֵלֹנֵ֖י מַמְרֵ֑א וְה֛וּא יֹשֵׁ֥ב פֶּֽתַח־הָאֹ֖הֶל כְּחֹ֥ם הַיּֽוֹם׃ followed by the second וַיִּשָּׂ֤א עֵינָיו֙ וַיַּ֔רְא וְהִנֵּה֙ שְׁלֹשָׁ֣ה אֲנָשִׁ֔ים נִצָּבִ֖ים עָלָ֑יו וַיַּ֗רְא וַיָּ֤רׇץ לִקְרָאתָם֙ מִפֶּ֣תַח הָאֹ֔הֶל וַיִּשְׁתַּ֖חוּ אָֽרְצָה׃ leads us to believe that the men were either angels or god himself depending on the source.

Now the only place in gemara I was shown when I asked this question (I need to find the daf) said that when a person is faced with a path with a beautiful woman and a path without he should take the one without so he should not be tempted. I dont remember this piece 100% so dont take my word for it until I bring its location and further validation. (Even so this piece has nothing to do with masturbation and more likely has to do with having a forbidden relationship)



On the first point...
I'm not going to even start... except that there was a big rabbi named rashi who wrote a commentary on chumash and you would probably do yourself some good learning the pesukim with rashi before you rewrite the whole story...
On the second point, The gemara there is talking about going one way where the woman were washing laundry and used to bend down in a not tzniusdik way. The gemara says that if there is no other way to go he is an 'oness' but if there is a different way to go he is a rashah(!) (even if he doesn't look... because he willingly put himself into a situation...)
Not sure if its the same gemara you were referring to but either way... 
Hope for the best Prepare for the worst

Re: Freedom from the Pain 25 Nov 2021 05:38 #374568

  • Meyer M.
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103 days

broke the 90 day barrier

its about 1 1/2 years since I started no PMO

starting a new streak and looking forward
Your best teacher for success is your last mistake

Re: Freedom from the Pain 25 Nov 2021 12:30 #374573

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Mazel Tov and welcome back! Maybe share with the chevra what is working for you.
Feel free to contact me at michelgelner@gmail.com

My threads: Lessons Learned: guardyoureyes.com/forum/20-Important-Threads/335248-Lessons-Learned

                    My Story and G-d Bless GYE: guardyoureyes.com/forum/17-Balei-Battims-Forum/303036-My-story-and-G-d-bless-GYE

Re: Freedom from the Pain 25 Nov 2021 14:47 #374575

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Meyer M. wrote on 25 Nov 2021 05:38:
103 days

broke the 90 day barrier

its about 1 1/2 years since I started no PMO

starting a new streak and looking forward

Wow! Great! It's great to hear from you and to hear about your long streak! Welcome back!
In the place where ba’alei teshuva stand, even pure tzaddikim who never sinned cannot stand. (Rabbi Avohu, Brachos 34b)

Great free resources:
My favorite book for breaking free: The Battle of the Generation 
https://guardyoureyes.com/ebooks/item/the-battle-of-the-generation. Change your attitude and change your life!

Rabbi Shafier's incredible lectures on breaking free: The Fight. Download here: 
https://theshmuz.com/series/the-fight/

If you're only ready to try something small, check out an easier way to do self-talk here:
https://guardyoureyes.com/forum/4-On-the-Way-to-90-Days/378128-Captain—Shtarkemotionals-Secret90Day-Challenge

Re: Freedom from the Pain 28 Mar 2022 21:50 #379239

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How are you doing?

Re: Freedom from the Pain 29 Mar 2022 05:05 #379281

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YeshivaGuy wrote on 28 Mar 2022 21:50:
How are you doing?

Im doing great! Talk about perfect timing, I just popped back in here ( guardyoureyes.com/forum/1-Break-Free/379279-HELP%21-Ive-fallen-and-I-cant-get-up%21®#379279 )
and how are you?
Your best teacher for success is your last mistake
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