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A Late-Night Rant - We Deserve Some RESPECT
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TOPIC: A Late-Night Rant - We Deserve Some RESPECT 1268 Views

A Late-Night Rant - We Deserve Some RESPECT 06 Aug 2020 21:54 #353438

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Hey there y'all! Tg 28 days and still no mb. Which is huge for me seeing as i haven't gone more than 2 weeks in about a year. So really grateful to you guys and gye for helping with that. I have been trying to cut down on the "poking around" which so many have addressed on my previous posts. Still tough - even with filters there is really no way to filter our everything, but im trying my best. And mikva night next week will make it easier for me to get my mind off *needing release* (i know, that is not what mikvah night is about, etc etc etc see previous posts for my clarification). 

Just wanted to rant about a few things. Yesterday i found out that a friend of mine had a broken engagement because the girl found out that he had a porn problem. I honestly feel that is wrong and horrible. I am under the impression that the majority of guys (at least from my circles) has seen/struggles with this. And they are still good guys. and honestly striving jews. I know this guy he is so sweet, has the best middos. And they think he is some evil faker. Its simply not true. That couple should have walked happily down to the chuppa. They could have had a wonderful marriage - sure he would have needed to get his issues in order at some point, but that's his business. Just like it is my business to get my issue in order - while I am bh in a wonderful marriage with a wonderful family. Guys shouldnt't be defined by this by self-righteous girls and mothers who wouldn't in a billion years understand what the struggle is like for a teenaged male in 2020. They will never understand. Everyone talks about how sad it is for the poor women when they find out their tzaddik husband isn't the tzaddik she thought he was. Well, first two things in response - first, welcome to the real world, honey. Second, he still is the tzaddik you thought he was, and, with all of his struggle and successes over the years invariably trying to get this under control, he is probably a bigger tzaddik than you will ever know. But as bad as I feel for the girls (who certainly go through pain of betrayal (even though the issue has NOTHING to do with them, having been a problem for years before he even met her) , and losing trust etc. etc.) I feel far worse for the men. Far worse for myself, selfish as it may seem. I have been the one suffering for nearly two decades. I have been the one battling an inner demon while my wife and the rest of them a floating on through life with nothing that comes near to this constant war ripping us apart. So yes, I think we deserve some compassion. Both from ourselves and from wives/wives to be who should find out that their husband is a normal male who knows how to use the interweb and has a working male appendage. But instead my friend is maligned and suffers the shame and indignity of being dumped like that. it's just not right. That could have been me. And it wouldn't have been fair then and its not fair now. Teachers have to educate girls about this. Kallah teachers have to educate kallahs about this. They need to understand the reality here. And it needs to be put in proportion, to cut it down to size. The same way we need to be told we are ok, we are normal, this is healthy battle, this is how hashem made us, the struggle of 2020 is monstrous etc etc - they need to be told the same exact thing. And we would spare ourselves alot of utter stupidity and pain and unnecessary hurt. 

And then I read on another forum here that someone got divorced because of this. It is honestly nonsense. It is beyond ridiculous to break up a family over this. PERIOD. In the secular world, couples (perhaps not a majority, but a good number of them) watch porn together. It is a joke by them, a stereotype of being male. I don't think they are right, obviously. That goes without saying. But just to put this issue into some sort of perspective - how do we go ahead breaking up marriages over this when healthy, normal people in the world live with this without a issue and remain perfectly happy etc. It's absolute stupidity and it rips my heart out. I was crying reading pickamoniker's posts. I wish I could yell at his wife. Couldn't she see his shining soul, his struggle for her? That struggle was probably a deeper expression of love and commitment toward her than ANYTHING she ever did/could ever do for him. Period. And the fact that she couldn't see that, and feels so stubbornly and self-righteously that she must destroy this person (and his faith, from the sound of it) because of her own small-mindedness and mistaken notion of reality is simply disgusting to me. This could have been avoided, All of this, with some health, perspective, and education could be avoided. 

I am in this for the long haul. I am in this, as mentioned in previous posts, for myself, for my wife, for Hashem. I get that this is the make it or break of it of judaism and a man's avodah. I know all the deep mystical ideas about shemiras hayesod. And I'm in. I get it. I believe it. But I also feel pickamoniker very strongly when he says,

"I know that everyone has their own life, their own journey and their own (often very mutually exclusive) core beliefs, but for me looking "back" it seems that the entire enterprise of treating this area like an "illness" and even more, the putting a moral spin on it in the first place was simply unhealthy. I was in a constant catch 22. I could be "sober" and struggling with every tiniest temptation lest I "fall", which led to a life of constant almost unbearable struggle, or I could be not "sober" and mired in shame and self loathing. Neither option was fun and life was at best tolerable for short periods." 

I feel that very strongly, I know the responses to this. I know that people have broken free and upgraded every area of their lives. I get it. But sometimes it does seem that we create this problem - both by exacerbating the issue for kids with poor education and an unhealthy approach to sex that is prevalent in the frum world (my father forcibly covering my eyes at age seven with his hand when we walked past a newspaper stand in the airport didn't make me want to look any less, trust me) as well as relationships by not preparing the women for the realities of the struggle that the nature of 2020 and man's natural makeup presents for every healthy man. 

We need more confidence, that's all. We deserve more respect. We need to climb out of porn, sure! But we also need to climb out of shame, guilt, and self-loathing over this. More things were done wrong to us than done wrong by us. In most cases (this is certainly true for my own) we didn't choose this sinful way of living. It was forced upon us. We don't take pleasure in acting out. The pain it brings far overshadows the pleasure. We hate this. We loathe it. And yet we are surrounded by a world that simply doesn't let us catch out breath before being knocked down again. We are WARRIORS. We are gibborei koach, who are still here, still trying after it all. 

Just my feelings. Good to get that off my chest. Keep trucking people. Love you all. 

Re: A Late-Night Rant - We Deserve Some RESPECT 06 Aug 2020 22:59 #353439

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Awsome post! Heartfelt and nuanced. Thanks for taking the effort articulating a lot thats atleast on my mind. 
Aka -  Mischadeish075

Re: A Late-Night Rant - We Deserve Some RESPECT 06 Aug 2020 23:25 #353440

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I second mggsbms

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”Trapped Lives Matter”
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Last Edit: 06 Aug 2020 23:26 by Markz.

Re: A Late-Night Rant - We Deserve Some RESPECT 07 Aug 2020 00:37 #353445

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I don't want to step on any toes here, and you can all blacklist me but I dont agree.

We can't whitewash this issue. It isn't like fungus. It doesn't mean you are a bad person. Not at all. But it isnt like having athletes foot either.

I think there is a tremendous difference between someone who finds out after they are married and demands a divorce and someone who is engaged. We all agree that there is nothing wrong with a handicapped person or a person who suffers from extreme anxiety or someone who has poor health. If any of this r"l happens to a spouse or if someone finds out after they are married its understandable if you expect them to try to make it work and not to immediately end the relationship. But if someone finds this out before a marriage why get involved? Yes it doesn't mean he/she won't be the most wonderful spouse or a perfect father but it doesn't seem radical to me not to want to initially get mixed up in such a relationship. 

And porn is technically cheating on a wife. Yes it may be more common than people think unfortunately, but it doesn't make it something a person should have to have between a relationship. If your wife (are you married?) tells you when are engaged that she struggles with kissing other men, no! she would never have relations with them, just kissing and maybe viewing their body parts but all her friends do it and it's normal she just won't be satisfied with just viewing your body...she also shares  peeks at her coworkers here and there is that ok? She can still be a loving wife and a nurturing mother? I think the difference is obvious and personally I don't blame your friends kallah. But once someone is married and willing to work on it is a different story... IF they are actually working on it...

                                    Grant

P.S. Trapped lives absolutely matter but why should I trap myself with them? 
P.P.S. Respect can be expected for fighting the addiction, but not for the addiction itself.
Last Edit: 07 Aug 2020 00:41 by Grant400.

Re: A Late-Night Rant - We Deserve Some RESPECT 07 Aug 2020 03:27 #353451

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I’m waiting for Dov to ready thru your Megilla and give his humbling reply.

Meanwhile...

“Trapped” wrote:
In the secular world... how do we go ahead breaking up marriages over this when healthy, normal people in the world live with this without a issue and remain perfectly happy etc.


Those healthy normal people have a 50% fight and flight relationship.
Do we want that for ourselves?
I believe in the theory that Porn ruins relationships. Although I’m not belittling your/our struggle.
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Re: A Late-Night Rant - We Deserve Some RESPECT 07 Aug 2020 04:45 #353461

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I think there is a tremendous difference between someone who finds out after they are married and demands a divorce and someone who is engaged. We all agree that there is nothing wrong with a handicapped person or a person who suffers from extreme anxiety or someone who has poor health. If any of this r"l happens to a spouse or if someone finds out after they are married its understandable if you expect them to try to make it work and not to immediately end the relationship. But if someone finds this out before a marriage why get involved? Yes it doesn't mean he/she won't be the most wonderful spouse or a perfect father but it doesn't seem radical to me not to want to initially get mixed up in such a relationship. 

And porn is technically cheating on a wife. Yes it may be more common than people think unfortunately, but it doesn't make it something a person should have to have between a relationship. If your wife (are you married?) tells you when are engaged that she struggles with kissing other men, no! she would never have relations with them, just kissing and maybe viewing their body parts but all her friends do it and it's normal she just won't be satisfied with just viewing your body...she also shares  peeks at her coworkers here and there is that ok? She can still be a loving wife and a nurturing mother? I think the difference is obvious and personally I don't blame your friends kallah. But once someone is married and willing to work on it is a different story... IF they are actually working on it...

                                    Grant

P.S. Trapped lives absolutely matter but why should I trap myself with them? 
P.P.S. Respect can be expected for fighting the addiction, but not for the addiction itself.

You won't be blacklisted, don't worry. Truth is i was more upset by picamoniker's tale of woe than my friend's broken engagement. If you didn't read his thread its a must. (It also shook me up to think about that happening to me - which, if my wife wasn't normal and amazing, it probably would have already). 

Re broken engagements - my point is that girly need to be aware that 90 percent of guys they are dating have struggled/still struggle with this. This idea that they are going to find someone better, a "pure" soul who hasn't been tainted is highly unlikely in today's culture. (again, not talking about extreme right chassidim and yeshivish but monsey, five towns, flatbush OOT circles). So if a person fesses up during the dating and the girl was given the proper hakdamah about what its like to be a man and the ways it is possible to break free, if she really liked him and he was truly a good guy, she should appreciate his honesty and stick with him together with the knowledge that this (again, in non extreme cases with nothing more than having viewed/viewing porn) is NOT the defining factor of a persons's identity. 

RE porn being "cheating" on one's wife. I know what Dov says and i strongly, strongly disagree on this point. (which is why I am not particularly looking forward to his review of this because he and i have a fundamentally different approach to this and i found some of his attitudes to be off-putting and unhelpful.) People who chat on their wife haven't been cheating on their wife since age five. You know why? Because their wife wasn't around. Cheating on a wife means that you wife plays a fundemental role here - the predominant factor in your action is your wife and her being cheated on. This can be because of many reasons related to your relationship - you don't love her, you don't care about her, you are unsatisfied in your relationship etc. A porn addiction simply isn't that. Its an illness. Like alchoholism. It has NOTHING to do with your relationship with your wife. I'll reiterate - i have a WONDERFUL, deep, real, emotion-filled, passionate relationship with my wife. We are literally one soul. She knows about my (thusfar lifelong!) struggle and loves me through it because she is mature enough to realize that it has zero to do with her or my feelings for her. I adore my wife, I am attracted to her, I try to be the best husband I can  be and i can't imagine living without her for a second. This problem has been a problem since day one, it is more of a cumpulsion than a choice, and I am always striving to work on it and grow  - particularly in this last stretch and to be honest with her etc. This is not "cheating" on my wife. This is me being an alchoholic with porn as my alchohol. This is as not cheating as my wife and being compulsively compelled to drink alchohol to release my stress (and far easier to live with because (again for me, there are certainly extreme cases and people with very different circumstances) it doesn't lead to abuse or neglect etc. 

Re your comment that "Respect can be expected for fighting the addiction, but not for the addiction itself." I would say that first of all, both people i referenced in my OP were fighting. (my friend had gone to therapy, and I am sure was desperate to get help he is genuinely the nicest, kindest person.) I would say that respect is expected for fighting the addiction, coupled with compassion for the pain of addiction. 

I just feel like our pain and struggle is ovrlooked, particularly  by those who could never understand what it is like, who then make decisions from that place of self-righteousness based on warped societal ideals that destroy people and rip apart families for next to nothing. 

Re: A Late-Night Rant - We Deserve Some RESPECT 07 Aug 2020 04:52 #353462

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I’m waiting for Dov to ready thru your Megilla and give his humbling reply.

Meanwhile...
“Trapped” wrote:
In the secular world... how do we go ahead breaking up marriages over this when healthy, normal people in the world live with this without a issue and remain perfectly happy etc.


Those healthy normal people have a 50% fight and flight relationship.
Do we want that for ourselves?
I believe in the theory that Porn ruins relationships. Although I’m not belittling your/our struggle.

First of all, as mentioned above, I disagree with Dov on this and many other things, so I am not particularly interested in his response (which I think i can probably predict.) The point of this post was that no "humbling reply" is necessary or appropriate. That we deserve respect and pride for this struggle and our awesome efforts. Period. 

To your point, I am not sure you are understanding my message or my objective in mentioning that fact. (Which i followed up with the words "I don't think they are right, obviously. That goes without saying.") Of course we don't want that for ourselves. 

I do not believe the theory that ALL porn involvement ruins relationships. I have seen firsthand that it simply isn't true. As long as it isn't extreme (and actually impacting the relationship in practial ways - taking time away, lessening desire for sex, etc.) i have seen in my own marriage that these two things can (and must!) be completely seperated from one another. 

Again, i am not making a blanket statement - there is a huge spectrum within porn addiction. I am talking about people like me who share a similar story. 

Re: A Late-Night Rant - We Deserve Some RESPECT 07 Aug 2020 05:08 #353464

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First of all thanks for not blacklisting me  
second your wife is amazing and truly one of a kind! You should thank hashem every day! 

About girls being aware I agree. About not getting carried away with past history that isn't going to continue today (on a realistic level, not with expecting marriage to alter everything) I agree. The only thing I feel differently about is someone who is still actively battling and struggling. Like I said, nothing to do with hashkafa, purely a logical decision can be understandable if one chooses not to get involved in a new relationship especially marriage, when one of the individuals struggles with a concept that is paradoxical to the marriage itself and not conducive to a successful and satisfying relationship. Especially like you agree that porn definitely ruins a portion of marriages. 

I did read picamonikers thread and it was heartbreaking. Again, already married with children is a different story but his thread doesn't expound upon the pain his wife went through and if he promised to change many times and didn't succeed. 

Regarding Dov's theory...not sure what you mean but I guess he also agrees its technically a version of "cheating ".

Regarding porn being your alchohol, call it what you want but it's still using another women's body that's not your wife's for the exact pleasure one is supposed to have exclusively with a spouse if married. 

                             Grant
P.S. @Markz: Since when is Dov still active on this site? 

Re: A Late-Night Rant - We Deserve Some RESPECT 07 Aug 2020 05:28 #353466

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I ‘chatted’ with Dov like 2 weeks ago... He’s alive and kicking, but apparently doesn’t post - my guess - because the guys at gye became like gals - too timid. He likes action like the good old days with woodford and all. Trapped is my kind of ‘guy’

‘Trapped’ - Dov often makes the point that there’s a difference between an addict and a non-addict, so he may yet agree with the gist of your 1st post regarding a NonA but I’m not sure.

My belief is that for someone who’s regularly busy with porn as apparently by our brother pickmoniker - it can and does affect a relationship significantly.
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Re: A Late-Night Rant - We Deserve Some RESPECT 07 Aug 2020 05:34 #353467

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And what about cordnoy? Does he also find the new generation not drinking enough tough man bourbon, no carpet of chest hair and voices not baritone enough? Where did he run?

Re: A Late-Night Rant - We Deserve Some RESPECT 07 Aug 2020 05:38 #353468

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Grant400 wrote:
And what about cordnoy? Does he also find the new generation not drinking enough tough man bourbon, no carpet of chest hair and voices not baritone enough? Where did he run?

Last I heard - he’s the opposite than Dov - he prefers the gals

Important Disclaimer: If you are new to the forum please use the 3 second rule and make believe you didn’t see this post

And don’t worry - after submitting I clicked ‘report this post’ already so the moderators should delete it if it doesn’t pass their approval. 
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Last Edit: 07 Aug 2020 05:43 by Markz.

Re: A Late-Night Rant - We Deserve Some RESPECT 07 Aug 2020 05:41 #353469

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:pinch: Warning: Spoiler!
Last Edit: 09 Aug 2020 04:04 by Grant400.

Re: A Late-Night Rant - We Deserve Some RESPECT 07 Aug 2020 12:52 #353476

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Interesting topic of conversation. 

Ironically, the other day I was thinking "How would I react if I my daughter was dating or engage to someone and we found out he had a serious porn addiction?" 

So answer is, it depends.  As Trapped mentioned, 95% of guys have seen porn before they got married.  BUT, there is a big difference between looking at porn from time to time and beings seriously addicted to porn.  Knowing what I know now, if I found out that my daughter was engage to someone with a very serious porn addiction, I would strongly encourage her to break off the engagement.  The reality is, people don't quit when they get married.  Countless of guys have testified to that on this forum.  For the small group of guys who have successfully quit, it was after they hit "rock bottom", why would I want my daughter to go through all that pain?  Porn destroys people and family.

Re: A Late-Night Rant - We Deserve Some RESPECT 07 Aug 2020 13:54 #353479

Markz wrote on 07 Aug 2020 05:28:
I ‘chatted’ with Dov like 2 weeks ago... He’s alive and kicking, but apparently doesn’t post - my guess - because the guys at gye became like gals - too timid. He likes action like the good old days with woodford and all. Trapped is my kind of ‘guy’


Woah. I'm part of that new generation, and we require wrapping in cotton wool, patting on the head, and to be told every second 'you can be a gadol. You can be the biggest tzaddik.' So considerations please.

But, on a more serious note, this sort of thing truly is heart wrenching. Honestly, I feel its such a crime that the jewish community hides from this issue so much. Through high school, its not like anyone told us, 'look, we know some of you watch porn, statistically its x%, contact us if you need help.'

My Rabbi told my Dad that in the area where I live there is a jewish school (not sure which, so I can't vouch for the level of frumkeit,) where one class calls a certain kid Tzaddik. Why? Cos' he's the only one in the class who doesn't watch porn.

And it doesn't get any more open in yeshiva. When I spoke to my Rebbe about lust issues, he wasn't even surprised. Clearly deals with it all the time, in all different forms and levels of addiction. So why is no one open about this? Why do so many boys and girls have to suffer in secret, for years believing they are the only ones, and they are terrible people for it?

I imagine for some girls it can be like a guy trying to chap the challenge of tznius, or something else that betzem just isn't as hard for us. They have a philosophy 'if its hard not to look, so just don't look!'  They need to be taught this just isn't the case. 

Lastly, I do agree with Dave M, there's a difference to watching some porn, and being an addict. The former you'd have to be crazy for calling off the shidduch. The latter, I can hear more.

Hatzlocha all.

p.s. How do I see pickmoniker's thread?I must be spelling the name wrong...

Edit: Last p.s. because what I had written sounded horrible.

יהי רצון שהדברים לתועלת

Today I will do what others won't, so tomorrow I can do what others can't.
We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence then, is not an act, but a habit.
We all make choices in life, but in the end, our choices make us.
Last Edit: 08 Aug 2020 22:38 by Im Tevakshena Kakasef.

Re: A Late-Night Rant - We Deserve Some RESPECT 07 Aug 2020 14:00 #353480

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Im Tevakshena Kakasef wrote on 07 Aug 2020 13:54:

p.s. How do I see pickmoniker's thread? I'm hoping it will shake me enough to make sure I don't suffer the same fate. Sounds a bit cruel said like that...

https://guardyoureyes.com/forum/4-On-the-Way-to-90-Days/344935-A-new-experience---lust-free-sobriety

Make sure to have a box of tissues ready 
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