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Re: Wake Sleepy up! 20 May 2022 12:28 #380980

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My humble opinion is that most people who truly want to stop these behaviors and despite all serious efforts, gedarim, tefillos and mesiras nefesh to stop nevertheless continue to be nichsal over and over again and continue to suffer are somewhere on the addiction spectrum.

As long as I thought about these behaviors as a religious problem that only required further subjugation of the yetzer hara, I didn't make any progress and, in fact, I continued to feel worse and worse about myself. Addiction is a medical disease and it needs to be treated as such. I'm not saying every guy is an addict because he likes looking at women and enjoys the feeling of being מוציא זרע לבטלה. I am saying that we cannot deny that if we want to stop a damaging behavior, have tried everything we can to stop for a long time, have davened, made gedarim, have learned לשמה, and yet still haven't made progress, we might have an addiction that needs a medical approach and the Torah commands us to listen to what the generation's best doctors say about the issue (for example, Rabbi Dr. Twersky, זצ״ל).

So, let's all aspire to learn Torah l'shma and daven with great kavanah, but let's also realize that if there is addiction in the picture, it needs treatment, just like cancer, ר״ל or any other disease.
As long as you keep fantasizing, you will never be able to stop masturbating.



As
long as you keep fantasizing, you will never be able to stop masturbating.



As
long as you keep fantasizing, you will never be able to stop masturbating.



If you meet 6 or more of the criteria listed below, you are an addict according to DSM-5 (I bolded six commonly met criteria) assuming porn/masturbation counts as a substance:

1. Using porn/masturbation more than intended or using it for longer than you’re meant to.

2. Trying to cut down or stop porn/masturbation but being unable to.

3. Experiencing intense cravings or urges to use porn/masturbation.

4. Needing more of porn/masturbation to get the desired effect — also called tolerance.

5. Developing withdrawal symptoms when not using porn/masturbation.

6. Spending more time getting and using porn/masturbation and recovering from porn/masturbation use.

7. Neglecting responsibilities at home, work or school because of porn/masturbation.

8. Continuing to use porn/masturbation even when it causes relationship problems.

9. Giving up important or desirable social and recreational activities due to porn/masturbation use.

10. Using porn/masturbation in risky settings that put you in danger.

11. Continuing to use porn/masturbation despite it causing problems to your physical and mental health.
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Re: Wake Sleepy up! 20 May 2022 13:16 #380981

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5Uu80*cdwB#^ wrote on 20 May 2022 12:28:
My humble opinion is that most people who truly want to stop these behaviors and despite all serious efforts, gedarim, tefillos and mesiras nefesh to stop nevertheless continue to be nichsal over and over again and continue to suffer are somewhere on the addiction spectrum.

As long as I thought about these behaviors as a religious problem that only required further subjugation of the yetzer hara, I didn't make any progress and, in fact, I continued to feel worse and worse about myself. Addiction is a medical disease and it needs to be treated as such. I'm not saying every guy is an addict because he likes looking at women and enjoys the feeling of being מוציא זרע לבטלה. I am saying that we cannot deny that if we want to stop a damaging behavior, have tried everything we can to stop for a long time, have davened, made gedarim, have learned לשמה, and yet still haven't made progress, we might have an addiction that needs a medical approach and the Torah commands us to listen to what the generation's best doctors say about the issue (for example, Rabbi Dr. Twersky, זצ״ל).

So, let's all aspire to learn Torah l'shma and daven with great kavanah, but let's also realize that if there is addiction in the picture, it needs treatment, just like cancer, ר״ל or any other disease.

You are raising a very valid point.
I would just like to add that there is no medical approach that can cure or help manage addiction. If we go with the opinion that true addiction is a disease, we also need to realize that it's not a physical disease, it's a spiritual disease. Only a spiritual approach can help with a spiritual disease.
The "12 step program" for example, is a spiritual approach that has proven to be very affective for many people.
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Last Edit: 20 May 2022 13:18 by DavidT.
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Re: Wake Sleepy up! 20 May 2022 13:34 #380983

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bego wrote on 20 May 2022 08:54:

Shmuel wrote on 19 May 2022 18:18:

Vehkam wrote on 19 May 2022 17:25:
Let’s lower the temperature here….it is a perspective that some people will identify with and some people will not.

There is no one answer fits all.

I wonder if people are bothered by the perspective itself or if they are bothered by the way the perspective is presented?

Personally, I am bothered by anything that pretends to be a panacea. These sorts of things are impossible to prove or argue with, hence open to abuse. To explain:  Let us say Torah solves porn. Can that be proven? Lets say "Rabbi X said so," although that Rabbi may well be the godol shebegodolim, doesn't mean he is the exclusive voice on a matter. Also, apart from the issue with us suspending our rational faculties and relying on statements of opinion as fact, there is the issue that it can't proved. If someone DOES (in this example) learn Torah lishmo and still struggles, the proposer of the idea will simply say, ah ha, you see, it wasn't really lishmoh! It is an endless cycle that cannot be proven and hence, whether true or not, isn't helpful. The same, by the way, applies to davenning. If you have ever heard the argument made that Hashem would answer positively id you really davenned hard, it is because the person saying that knows fully well they cannot be challenged. They always win the argument as if you don't get, they can say you didn't really daven hard enough. No matter how much you protest, they will stand by their insistence that your tefilla wasn't good enough.

Basically, it is manipulative and callous. It says you failed because of x and you can't do anything about it because no matter what you do, they will insist you continue to fail at x. 

Well said.
The same can be said regardin' the 12-step method, therapy, sponsors, mentors, book-readin', EMDR, etc.
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Re: Wake Sleepy up! 20 May 2022 14:09 #380986

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cordnoy wrote on 20 May 2022 13:34:

bego wrote on 20 May 2022 08:54:

Shmuel wrote on 19 May 2022 18:18:

Vehkam wrote on 19 May 2022 17:25:
Let’s lower the temperature here….it is a perspective that some people will identify with and some people will not.

There is no one answer fits all.

I wonder if people are bothered by the perspective itself or if they are bothered by the way the perspective is presented?

Personally, I am bothered by anything that pretends to be a panacea. These sorts of things are impossible to prove or argue with, hence open to abuse. To explain:  Let us say Torah solves porn. Can that be proven? Lets say "Rabbi X said so," although that Rabbi may well be the godol shebegodolim, doesn't mean he is the exclusive voice on a matter. Also, apart from the issue with us suspending our rational faculties and relying on statements of opinion as fact, there is the issue that it can't proved. If someone DOES (in this example) learn Torah lishmo and still struggles, the proposer of the idea will simply say, ah ha, you see, it wasn't really lishmoh! It is an endless cycle that cannot be proven and hence, whether true or not, isn't helpful. The same, by the way, applies to davenning. If you have ever heard the argument made that Hashem would answer positively id you really davenned hard, it is because the person saying that knows fully well they cannot be challenged. They always win the argument as if you don't get, they can say you didn't really daven hard enough. No matter how much you protest, they will stand by their insistence that your tefilla wasn't good enough.

Basically, it is manipulative and callous. It says you failed because of x and you can't do anything about it because no matter what you do, they will insist you continue to fail at x. 

Well said.
The same can be said regardin' the 12-step method, therapy, sponsors, mentors, book-readin', EMDR, etc.

Absolutely! 
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Re: Wake Sleepy up! 20 May 2022 14:58 #380989

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frank.lee wrote on 20 May 2022 11:36:
Great points from everyone here!
about davening b'emes, i assume this is included in the machlokes between Rav Chaim Volozhiner and the Chazon Ish about Bitachon.

Either way, something can be true and still not provable.

What was the machlokes  between them? 
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Re: Wake Sleepy up! 20 May 2022 15:00 #380990

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DavidT wrote on 20 May 2022 13:16:

5Uu80*cdwB#^ wrote on 20 May 2022 12:28:
My humble opinion is that most people who truly want to stop these behaviors and despite all serious efforts, gedarim, tefillos and mesiras nefesh to stop nevertheless continue to be nichsal over and over again and continue to suffer are somewhere on the addiction spectrum.

As long as I thought about these behaviors as a religious problem that only required further subjugation of the yetzer hara, I didn't make any progress and, in fact, I continued to feel worse and worse about myself. Addiction is a medical disease and it needs to be treated as such. I'm not saying every guy is an addict because he likes looking at women and enjoys the feeling of being מוציא זרע לבטלה. I am saying that we cannot deny that if we want to stop a damaging behavior, have tried everything we can to stop for a long time, have davened, made gedarim, have learned לשמה, and yet still haven't made progress, we might have an addiction that needs a medical approach and the Torah commands us to listen to what the generation's best doctors say about the issue (for example, Rabbi Dr. Twersky, זצ״ל).

So, let's all aspire to learn Torah l'shma and daven with great kavanah, but let's also realize that if there is addiction in the picture, it needs treatment, just like cancer, ר״ל or any other disease.

You are raising a very valid point.
I would just like to add that there is no medical approach that can cure or help manage addiction. If we go with the opinion that true addiction is a disease, we also need to realize that it's not a physical disease, it's a spiritual disease. Only a spiritual approach can help with a spiritual disease.
The "12 step program" for example, is a spiritual approach that has proven to be very affective for many people.

Hi DavidT,
In my opinion, addiction to masturbation is not more of a spiritual disease than is addiction to alcohol.
As long as you keep fantasizing, you will never be able to stop masturbating.



As
long as you keep fantasizing, you will never be able to stop masturbating.



As
long as you keep fantasizing, you will never be able to stop masturbating.



If you meet 6 or more of the criteria listed below, you are an addict according to DSM-5 (I bolded six commonly met criteria) assuming porn/masturbation counts as a substance:

1. Using porn/masturbation more than intended or using it for longer than you’re meant to.

2. Trying to cut down or stop porn/masturbation but being unable to.

3. Experiencing intense cravings or urges to use porn/masturbation.

4. Needing more of porn/masturbation to get the desired effect — also called tolerance.

5. Developing withdrawal symptoms when not using porn/masturbation.

6. Spending more time getting and using porn/masturbation and recovering from porn/masturbation use.

7. Neglecting responsibilities at home, work or school because of porn/masturbation.

8. Continuing to use porn/masturbation even when it causes relationship problems.

9. Giving up important or desirable social and recreational activities due to porn/masturbation use.

10. Using porn/masturbation in risky settings that put you in danger.

11. Continuing to use porn/masturbation despite it causing problems to your physical and mental health.
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Re: Wake Sleepy up! 22 May 2022 04:45 #381017

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bego wrote on 20 May 2022 08:54:

Shmuel wrote on 19 May 2022 18:18:

Vehkam wrote on 19 May 2022 17:25:
Let’s lower the temperature here….it is a perspective that some people will identify with and some people will not.

There is no one answer fits all.

I wonder if people are bothered by the perspective itself or if they are bothered by the way the perspective is presented?

Personally, I am bothered by anything that pretends to be a panacea. These sorts of things are impossible to prove or argue with, hence open to abuse. To explain:  Let us say Torah solves porn. Can that be proven? Lets say "Rabbi X said so," although that Rabbi may well be the godol shebegodolim, doesn't mean he is the exclusive voice on a matter. Also, apart from the issue with us suspending our rational faculties and relying on statements of opinion as fact, there is the issue that it can't proved. If someone DOES (in this example) learn Torah lishmo and still struggles, the proposer of the idea will simply say, ah ha, you see, it wasn't really lishmoh! It is an endless cycle that cannot be proven and hence, whether true or not, isn't helpful. The same, by the way, applies to davenning. If you have ever heard the argument made that Hashem would answer positively id you really davenned hard, it is because the person saying that knows fully well they cannot be challenged. They always win the argument as if you don't get, they can say you didn't really daven hard enough. No matter how much you protest, they will stand by their insistence that your tefilla wasn't good enough.

Basically, it is manipulative and callous. It says you failed because of x and you can't do anything about it because no matter what you do, they will insist you continue to fail at x. 

sorry, but your post,excuse me, doesnt really make sense to me.could be im at fault, could be not.for example :
we know by Torah YAGATA VILO MATZATZA AL TAAMIN(meaning you werent yogayah enough , you need more effort, did anyone ever say , oy comon its not provable, your just saying that i failed at my" yigiy'ah" till now.
the pasuk says KAVEY EL HASHEM-HOPE TO HASHEM (IF HASHEM DIDNT ANASWER YOU YET )CHAZAK VIYAAMETZ LIYBECHA -STRENGTHEN YOUR HEART (AND AGAIN) -KAVEY EL HASHEM-HOPE HASHEM
here we are told 2 things which are similiar 1 in Torah and 1 in Tefila 
Torah -if you labored and you are lacking in grasping the Torah, dont give up !all you need is more labor in Torah ,did anyone ever say , nah i labored enough i have no more koach ,im skipping this tosfos ?(of course people do that ,but its because they dont have the emuna that yagata vlo matzatza AL TAAMIN)
no! he really has the emuna that he didnt labor what he shouldve.
same with Tefila , i spent hours over a  Tehilim , and wasnt answered ,is anyone gonna say ,nah i prayed enough ,im giving up no more davening?( of course people say that but its only because they dont have the emuna of chazak vyametz libecha vikavey el Hashem)
no! he really has the emuna that he should daven more.
so its the same thing by the statement that i made , i didnt suck it out of my thumb, the sefer chasidm and the chazon ish say that on ruchniyus HASHEM ANSWERS you argue on them?!anyone is cholek on them ?! will you try to prove them wrong just because you were not answered?! just like the above cases  you realize that you re lacking in the misikas of Torah and obviously your doing something wrong , you havent davened enough.
dont take it so personal
i agree it takes energy to be a chazak viyametz libech vkavey el Hashem , and if you stop who can really criticize you, but when you close your tehilim its with the awareness that if ill daven more I WILL BE ANSWERED , we are promised !! dont take it so personal that you are being told that you didnt daven enough.
and the same thing with the point that i mentioned in the inyan of rallly tateing the sweetness of Torah which can be accomplished by Tefila V'HAREV NA lets face  it, many of us run to p and m  because we need that V'HAREV NA of p and m , and if we daven enough we can have a tachlif -an exchange of pleasure from  p and m  to another  pleasure of misikas haTorah , Hameor sheba machzirin limutav .
now im not talking about addicts, i never do. im talking about people who have a yetzer hara for p&m ,for them there is hope that if we will be zoche to misikas haTorah we will be healed, how do we get it , my suggestion was put energy in the beracha viharev na ,who said that will get it for us? im backing it with the sefer chasidim and chazon ish
KARAV HASHEM LCHOL KARAV ,LICHOL ASHER YIKRAOOHOO BE'EMES,
Ay someone will claim that i HAVE  this misikas haTorah and still do p&m , ill say that my post is not for you . all i know is that after all my years of being addicted to masterbation i stopped for 11 years when i started getting a geshmack and satisfaction from Torah, it wasnt even a desire for me to fall back to it , what exchange this happy fulfilling life to what i used to have?no way! for me its BADOOK UMINOOSA , when did i fall back into it? when i didnt have the geshmack anymore for whatever reasons. so all im suggesting to get a geshamack by praying vihaarev na  AND HASHEM WILL ANSWER , WE ARE PROMISED !!DONT GIVE UP! if bego claims that he has this geshmack and still has p&m i am skeptical if he really has it , maybe the geshmack is from the kavod he gets from learning or the geshamack from the "logic " of Torah, but from real misikas haTorah, maybe he doesnt have  and no one should be angry for not believing what is written by someone who is writing on an anonymous forum, and hey,  i have no taanos if you dont believe ME of what i write either.
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Last Edit: 22 May 2022 06:10 by sleepy.
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Re: Wake Sleepy up! 22 May 2022 05:04 #381018

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bego wrote on 20 May 2022 11:18:

Vehkam wrote on 20 May 2022 10:57:
Learning and davening are the two ways that a person can connect to hashem almost instantly. The nesivos Shalom talks about this. One of the ways to overcome these struggles is to be more invested in the connection to hashem. This has worked for me and others as well. I am not suggesting that this will work for everyone and there are certainly wonderful people with strong connections that are struggling.

It may be helpful to take the writing with a grain of salt and see it as a perspective and a method as opposed to a panacea. Hopefully if you do that you will not see it as callous and manipulative. Most often the people struggling and writing here are just trying to pose ideas and suggestions that MAY work regardless of the language and emotional responses that you see.

Just my humble opinion.

For sure. 

But it was clear he was making a statement of totality. A claim that if you call on Hashem B'emes (soemthing impossible to define or test) or learn torah lishmoh then life will suddenly be ok. That isn't right (lfi anius da'ati) in Hashkofo or humanity. 

so lets take the pasuk of calling out to Hashem bemes, and just chuck it in the garbage...
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Re: Wake Sleepy up! 22 May 2022 05:10 #381019

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Hashem Help Me wrote on 20 May 2022 11:28:
Maybe he simply wishes to get that madreiga of Torah lishma/dveikus B'Hashem (or whatever terminology that one wants to use), that the nisayon will diminish....   My personal answer to that is that is - of course that should be one's goal, but to the best of my knowledge, the last person in history that killed his yetzer hara was Dovid HaMelech, so we all retain an element of ta'avah, no matter what medreiga one is on. I think Hashem has great nachas from the entire chevra - no matter what mehalech they are using to get clean. This is a massive nisayon affecting numerous great people - yet, the oilam is saying NO! - we will b'ezras Hashem get out of this - and according to each person's techunas hanefesh and life experiences, different methods are more or less successful.

As an aside, it became popular to daven on Lag B'omer at the kever of the Bobover Rebbe zatzal. I decided to join the masses of people there from all walks of life. While there i davened for all of us - the guys struggling with this stuff. When i finished some tehillim, i thought for a minut - what would be the real solution for all of this. And i believe the only real solution is that Hashem will one day blow a ruach tahara onto our world, like the novi says - "U'mala kol ha'aretz de'ah es Hashem". Until then, we need to each help each other while realizing there are different approaches - and that is fine - the goal is the same.

im not trying to get misikas haTorah  to kill anyones yetzer hara, im trying to get the misikas haTorah to get them TODAY to stop , if you have no tachlif in pleasure and that is what we are seeking , how can we stay clean from this forbidden pleasure , my idea /suggestion is to get a real pleasure from Torah ,how? by pouring out our hearts in VHAAREV NA .
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Re: Wake Sleepy up! 22 May 2022 05:23 #381020

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Last Edit: 22 May 2022 08:14 by sleepy.
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Re: Wake Sleepy up! 22 May 2022 05:45 #381021

5Uu80*cdwB#^ wrote on 20 May 2022 15:00:

DavidT wrote on 20 May 2022 13:16:

5Uu80*cdwB#^ wrote on 20 May 2022 12:28:
My humble opinion is that most people who truly want to stop these behaviors and despite all serious efforts, gedarim, tefillos and mesiras nefesh to stop nevertheless continue to be nichsal over and over again and continue to suffer are somewhere on the addiction spectrum.

As long as I thought about these behaviors as a religious problem that only required further subjugation of the yetzer hara, I didn't make any progress and, in fact, I continued to feel worse and worse about myself. Addiction is a medical disease and it needs to be treated as such. I'm not saying every guy is an addict because he likes looking at women and enjoys the feeling of being מוציא זרע לבטלה. I am saying that we cannot deny that if we want to stop a damaging behavior, have tried everything we can to stop for a long time, have davened, made gedarim, have learned לשמה, and yet still haven't made progress, we might have an addiction that needs a medical approach and the Torah commands us to listen to what the generation's best doctors say about the issue (for example, Rabbi Dr. Twersky, זצ״ל).

So, let's all aspire to learn Torah l'shma and daven with great kavanah, but let's also realize that if there is addiction in the picture, it needs treatment, just like cancer, ר״ל or any other disease.

You are raising a very valid point.
I would just like to add that there is no medical approach that can cure or help manage addiction. If we go with the opinion that true addiction is a disease, we also need to realize that it's not a physical disease, it's a spiritual disease. Only a spiritual approach can help with a spiritual disease.
The "12 step program" for example, is a spiritual approach that has proven to be very affective for many people.

Hi DavidT,
In my opinion, addiction to masturbation is not more of a spiritual disease than is addiction to alcohol.

All Addictions fall in the same category. Even though a number of methods have been developed, none are medical. A spiritual illness means there is no drug to cure it, the only cure to date is work on your "Self".

"Spiritual disease" doesn't mean that it has anything to do with a specific religion. Whether 12 Steps works for you, SMART, group Hisbodidus, Mussar vaadim, therapy, medication for your depression or anxiety or any combination of the above, whatever works, it's because you are working on your "Spirit", on your "Self". 

Again, a spiritual disease means a disease that affects your "spirit" and has nothing to do with religion.

Yes, religion is supposed to be a system to work on yourself, and it's true that all wisdom is in the Torah, but, it often takes a wise person to put the pieces together on how to use the Torah wisdom in combating various different issues. Rabbi Twerski wrote a book on this, it's called "Teshuva Through Recovery" it's about the various mekoros in the Torah and Chazal that can help you work through recovery.

By the way, Rabbi Twerski says that the 12 steps are all really Torah principles that were stolen from the Torah, and we just need to bring them back to were they came from.
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Last Edit: 22 May 2022 06:32 by wilnevergiveup.
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Re: Wake Sleepy up! 22 May 2022 06:25 #381025

sleepy wrote on 22 May 2022 05:23:
just curious bego, the more you review gemara do you feel more geshmack or more tired ?
 for example  if you would review  a 100 times .

I hate to take sides in these arguments but I want to take a stance. 

Ever since I was very young, I too was brainwashed that if I looked at girls, or worse, watched movies, I would never enjoy the sweetness of Torah unless I go through agonizing pain. My Rebbeim gave the classic mashul of eating honey when you have cuts in your tongue.

This is how they spoke 20 years ago because they just didn't have to tools for Torah chinuch in this context. The reality is not like that. There are many accomplished Talmidei chachamim on this site who love learning and derive great sipuk from it. Telling someone who struggles with shmiras einayim and learning that one is being caused by the other is nothing short of digging his grave. Now he knows he will never enjoy learning and that it's his fault. You are just causing him to give up and It's not even true. 

I am not advocating watching porn, what I am saying is that we need to find better more effective and more accurate motivators.

I love learning! I learn in Kollel all day. The reason why someone struggling may not enjoy learning (@Sleepy included) may be more from the shame and guilt, that you don't think you deserve it and that you don't feel that you are deserving of Hashem's love.

If only my Rebbeim would have taken a different route, that of believing in me and enabling me to push through the rough patches I would probably enjoy learning even more. 

Learning is great, it can even be used as a tool, but don't go around and say that anyone who struggles with lust doesn't enjoy learning. There are hundreds on this site to prove you wrong. It's sweet, even sweeter than porn.
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Last Edit: 22 May 2022 13:11 by wilnevergiveup.
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Re: Wake Sleepy up! 22 May 2022 07:58 #381033

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Last Edit: 22 May 2022 15:23 by sleepy.
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Re: Wake Sleepy up! 22 May 2022 08:17 #381036

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wilnevergiveup wrote on 22 May 2022 06:25:

sleepy wrote on 22 May 2022 05:23:
just curious bego, the more you review gemara do you feel more geshmack or more tired ?
 for example  if you would review  a 100 times .

I hate to take sides in these arguments but I want to take a stance. 

Ever since I was very young, I too was brainwashed that if I looked at girls, or worse, watched movies, I would never enjoy the sweetness of Torah unless I go through agonizing pain. My Rebbeim gave the classic mashul of eating honey when you have cuts in your tongue.

This is how they spoke 20 years ago because they just didn't have to tools for Torah chinuch. The reality is not like that. There are many accomplished Talmidei chachamim on this site who love learning and derive great sipuk from it. Telling someone who struggles with shmiras einayim and learning taht one is being caused by the other is basically digging his grave. Now he knows he will never enjoy learning and that it's his fault. You are just causing him to give up. It's simply not true. 

I am not advocating watching porn, what I am saying is that we need to find better more effective and more accurate motivators.

I enjoy learning I learn in Kollel all day. The reason why someone struggling may not enjoy learning (@Sleepy included) may be more from the shame and guilt, that you don't think you deserve it and that you don't feel that you are deserving of Hashem's love.

If only my Rebbeim would have taken a different route, that of believing in me and enabling me to push through the rough patches I would probably enjoy learning even more today. 

Learning is great, it can even be used as a tool, but don't go around and say that no one who struggles with lust doesn't enjoy learning. There are hundreds on this site to prove you wrong. It's sweet, even sweeter than porn.  


"If only my Rebbeim would have taken a different route, that of believing in me and enabling me to push through the rough patches I would probably enjoy learning even more today. "


instead of bashing and complaining about your rebbiem ,maybe you should man up and take responsibility for your lack of enjoyment in learning and  try being michavin in  vharev na a little more, we could all use improvement,  cant we?
For an explanation on my choice of username and avatar see my first post
Last Edit: 22 May 2022 11:03 by sleepy.
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Re: Wake Sleepy up! 22 May 2022 08:28 #381037

  • sleepy
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anyway no use in discussing anymore  if anyone wants somechizuk how to beat p&m take a look at 
#380910
whoever feels that its not for them , just ignore  .i feel it is Emes and  i wrote for people who are mivakshei haemes. 
hatzlacha to everybody!
For an explanation on my choice of username and avatar see my first post
Last Edit: 22 May 2022 08:31 by sleepy.
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