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TOPIC: Wake Sleepy up! 37440 Views

Re: Wake Sleepy up! 15 May 2022 20:20 #380743

  • frank.lee
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I don't chap ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Re: Wake Sleepy up! 15 May 2022 20:28 #380744

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sleepy wrote on 15 May 2022 17:51:

Shmuel wrote on 13 May 2022 15:25:


 will work if we work it. 

Pretty sure this is a direct quote from AA...

Eh, sooooooooo?

Did you not state above "please nothing 12 stepish"? 
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Re: Wake Sleepy up! 15 May 2022 20:30 #380745

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frankly wrote on 15 May 2022 20:20:
I don't chap ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I meant about the message about hit dein oigen, seeing two...
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Re: Wake Sleepy up! 15 May 2022 20:36 #380746

Shmuel wrote on 15 May 2022 19:11:

sleepy wrote on 15 May 2022 17:44:

Lustful wrote on 13 May 2022 16:18:


or are you saying,"humpf, if someone doesn't want to follow psychology, MUST BE that he doesn't want to follow the Torah or musar way as well, must be..."
and to that, I reply respectfully, -" huh?!"

You are smart. You almost Chapt what I meant to say.
I will explain it again in a different way.
If a Diyan Rav or Rabbi is telling you that you should psychologically work on addiction, then this is what the Torah wants from you at that moment. "Torah Loi Bashumiyam," someone who has Horua to Pasken god says whatever he is going to Pasken this is the Halacha. Of course, we are talking from Erlichia Diyen. If not, no one would want to be a Diyan because they would be afraid of Pasken Shales. Now to you, my friend, a Diyan that understands addiction will tell you to use psychological methods if nothing else works for you (it seems to me that you are in that category). If you do not follow such guidance from the Diyan, you do not want to follow the Torah; you want to follow your belief in what you think is true. You want the Diyan should tell you what to do according to your opinion; that does not call Following the Torah.

thank you for explaining. it seems that you're assuming that I am in the category of "nothing else works" if so I agree. but I am in the category of "something else does work, and has worked in my past to keep me clean for 11 years", hence my desire to use those things again. and even now in my up and down battles, I see that Torah, Mussar, etc. does help, "AY", you'll say," that you fall some times so that can't be a good mihalech," so ill answer back to you that if someone takes the psychology derech, FYI, he ALSO falls. so the pircha is not a pircha.
thank you

So what are you looking for now?
Why not use what worked in the past?

Bro, @Sleepy came here asking for help, and he was even clear about what kind of help he wants/is willing to receive. The fact is that you cannot help someone unless they want it so if doing things Sleepy's way is not your way, why bother?

What worked in the past is obviously not working now but that doesn't mean that it's not a working program. As was mentioned earlier, loads of guys who are in SA/therapy have relapses, but that doesn't mean the program doesn't work. I am not saying that I agree with @Sleepy's mehalech, but I can be respectful of his views. Sometimes a guy just needs a little chizuk, or to know that someone believes in him. Sometimes the make it or break it is a "thank you" from someone they respect or some other form of validation. Sometimes, even when working a working system things fall apart because we lose motivation or any other number of reasons, we need to figure out why it worked for so long and now it's breaking down. What changed? How is shalom bayis? How is work? Kids? There could be a million things!

Either way, @Sleepy you can find your way very soon. Let us know what you figured out. I may not agree, but who cares?!
Check out My Thread and The Truth

(עשה רצונו כרצונך (אבות,ב:ד

Feel free to email me  wilnevergiveupgye@gmail.com
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Re: Wake Sleepy up! 15 May 2022 20:43 #380748

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wilnevergiveup wrote on 15 May 2022 20:36:

Shmuel wrote on 15 May 2022 19:11:

sleepy wrote on 15 May 2022 17:44:

Lustful wrote on 13 May 2022 16:18:


or are you saying,"humpf, if someone doesn't want to follow psychology, MUST BE that he doesn't want to follow the Torah or musar way as well, must be..."
and to that, I reply respectfully, -" huh?!"

You are smart. You almost Chapt what I meant to say.
I will explain it again in a different way.
If a Diyan Rav or Rabbi is telling you that you should psychologically work on addiction, then this is what the Torah wants from you at that moment. "Torah Loi Bashumiyam," someone who has Horua to Pasken god says whatever he is going to Pasken this is the Halacha. Of course, we are talking from Erlichia Diyen. If not, no one would want to be a Diyan because they would be afraid of Pasken Shales. Now to you, my friend, a Diyan that understands addiction will tell you to use psychological methods if nothing else works for you (it seems to me that you are in that category). If you do not follow such guidance from the Diyan, you do not want to follow the Torah; you want to follow your belief in what you think is true. You want the Diyan should tell you what to do according to your opinion; that does not call Following the Torah.

thank you for explaining. it seems that you're assuming that I am in the category of "nothing else works" if so I agree. but I am in the category of "something else does work, and has worked in my past to keep me clean for 11 years", hence my desire to use those things again. and even now in my up and down battles, I see that Torah, Mussar, etc. does help, "AY", you'll say," that you fall some times so that can't be a good mihalech," so ill answer back to you that if someone takes the psychology derech, FYI, he ALSO falls. so the pircha is not a pircha.
thank you

So what are you looking for now?
Why not use what worked in the past?

Bro, @Sleepy came here asking for help, and he was even clear about what kind of help he wants/is willing to receive. The fact is that you cannot help someone unless they want it so if doing things Sleepy's way is not your way, why bother?

What worked in the past is obviously not working now but that doesn't mean that it's not a working program. As was mentioned earlier, loads of guys who are in SA/therapy have relapses, but that doesn't mean the program doesn't work. I am not saying that I agree with @Sleepy's mehalech, but I can be respectful of his views. Sometimes a guy just needs a little chizuk, or to know that someone believes in him. Sometimes the make it or break it is a "thank you" from someone they respect or some other form of validation. Sometimes, even when working a working system things fall apart because we lose motivation or any other number of reasons, we need to figure out why it worked for so long and now it's breaking down. What changed? How is shalom bayis? How is work? Kids? There could be a million things!

Either way, @Sleepy you can find your way very soon. Let us know what you figured out. I may not agree, but who cares?!

Hi 

You are right...
​Sleepy I wish you success in finding a way that works for you!

Much Hatzlucha
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Re: Wake Sleepy up! 15 May 2022 20:48 #380749

Shmuel wrote on 15 May 2022 20:28:

sleepy wrote on 15 May 2022 17:51:

Shmuel wrote on 13 May 2022 15:25:


 will work if we work it. 

Pretty sure this is a direct quote from AA...


Eh, sooooooooo?

Did you not state above "please nothing 12 stepish"? 

I think that was exactly the point! 

If you don't believe in something, you can't work it therefor don't tell him anything 12 stepish because even they agree that it wouldn't work for him.

Again, I would love to see @Sleepy try some of the things from his forbidden list, but until then, lets try to be supportive.
Check out My Thread and The Truth

(עשה רצונו כרצונך (אבות,ב:ד

Feel free to email me  wilnevergiveupgye@gmail.com
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Re: Wake Sleepy up! 15 May 2022 20:55 #380750

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wilnevergiveup wrote on 15 May 2022 20:48:

Shmuel wrote on 15 May 2022 20:28:

sleepy wrote on 15 May 2022 17:51:

Shmuel wrote on 13 May 2022 15:25:


 will work if we work it. 

Pretty sure this is a direct quote from AA...



Eh, sooooooooo?

Did you not state above "please nothing 12 stepish"? 

I think that was exactly the point! 

If you don't believe in something, you can't work it therefor don't tell him anything 12 stepish because even they agree that it wouldn't work for him.

Again, I would love to see @Sleepy try some of the things from his forbidden list, but until then, lets try to be supportive.

Shmuel argues that Sleepy says he does not want to use 12 steps, but from his post, it sounded like he is unconsciously utilizing the concept of 12 steps. My understand. 
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Re: Wake Sleepy up! 16 May 2022 04:06 #380760

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Lustfull wrote on 15 May 2022 20:55:

wilnevergiveup wrote on 15 May 2022 20:48:

Shmuel wrote on 15 May 2022 20:28:

sleepy wrote on 15 May 2022 17:51:

Shmuel wrote on 13 May 2022 15:25:


 will work if we work it. 

Pretty sure this is a direct quote from AA...




Eh, sooooooooo?

Did you not state above "please nothing 12 stepish"? 

I think that was exactly the point! 

If you don't believe in something, you can't work it therefor don't tell him anything 12 stepish because even they agree that it wouldn't work for him.

Again, I would love to see @Sleepy try some of the things from his forbidden list, but until then, lets try to be supportive.

Shmuel argues that Sleepy says he does not want to use 12 steps, but from his post, it sounded like he is unconsciously utilizing the concept of 12 steps. My understand. 

working something seriously is not a 12 step thingy, i understood that you have to be consistent and use the Torah  tools very seriously   in order for it to work way before i ever heard  the concept in the 12 steps ,i was justah speakenah your launguageah
For an explanation on my choice of username and avatar see my first post
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Re: Wake Sleepy up! 16 May 2022 04:16 #380762

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wilnevergiveup wrote on 15 May 2022 20:36:

Shmuel wrote on 15 May 2022 19:11:

sleepy wrote on 15 May 2022 17:44:

Lustful wrote on 13 May 2022 16:18:


or are you saying,"humpf, if someone doesn't want to follow psychology, MUST BE that he doesn't want to follow the Torah or musar way as well, must be..."
and to that, I reply respectfully, -" huh?!"

You are smart. You almost Chapt what I meant to say.
I will explain it again in a different way.
If a Diyan Rav or Rabbi is telling you that you should psychologically work on addiction, then this is what the Torah wants from you at that moment. "Torah Loi Bashumiyam," someone who has Horua to Pasken god says whatever he is going to Pasken this is the Halacha. Of course, we are talking from Erlichia Diyen. If not, no one would want to be a Diyan because they would be afraid of Pasken Shales. Now to you, my friend, a Diyan that understands addiction will tell you to use psychological methods if nothing else works for you (it seems to me that you are in that category). If you do not follow such guidance from the Diyan, you do not want to follow the Torah; you want to follow your belief in what you think is true. You want the Diyan should tell you what to do according to your opinion; that does not call Following the Torah.

thank you for explaining. it seems that you're assuming that I am in the category of "nothing else works" if so I agree. but I am in the category of "something else does work, and has worked in my past to keep me clean for 11 years", hence my desire to use those things again. and even now in my up and down battles, I see that Torah, Mussar, etc. does help, "AY", you'll say," that you fall some times so that can't be a good mihalech," so ill answer back to you that if someone takes the psychology derech, FYI, he ALSO falls. so the pircha is not a pircha.
thank you

So what are you looking for now?
Why not use what worked in the past?

Bro, @Sleepy came here asking for help, and he was even clear about what kind of help he wants/is willing to receive. The fact is that you cannot help someone unless they want it so if doing things Sleepy's way is not your way, why bother?

What worked in the past is obviously not working now but that doesn't mean that it's not a working program. As was mentioned earlier, loads of guys who are in SA/therapy have relapses, but that doesn't mean the program doesn't work. I am not saying that I agree with @Sleepy's mehalech, but I can be respectful of his views. Sometimes a guy just needs a little chizuk, or to know that someone believes in him. Sometimes the make it or break it is a "thank you" from someone they respect or some other form of validation. Sometimes, even when working a working system things fall apart because we lose motivation or any other number of reasons, we need to figure out why it worked for so long and now it's breaking down. What changed? How is shalom bayis? How is work? Kids? There could be a million things!

Either way, @Sleepy you can find your way very soon. Let us know what you figured out. I may not agree, but who cares?!

wow willnevergiveup!
im amazed how well you see the picture and expressed it with such well articulation. i cant say i mameshed cried when i read this post but i got that eye stinging sensation  and maybe my tamei  eyes moistened a bit.
hatzlacha raba !
For an explanation on my choice of username and avatar see my first post
Last Edit: 17 May 2022 03:52 by sleepy.
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Re: Wake Sleepy up! 16 May 2022 04:21 #380763

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Lustfull wrote on 15 May 2022 19:16:
Hi sleepy. First, I want to apologize if I was too harsh in the post.
Secondly, I feel your pain. It is hard to fight an addiction. I wish you much success in finding the right Torahdigga way. I will be happy to hear that you have found one, and maybe you will be able to help others...
 Thirdly, what has happened now if you have worked for 11 years? Why can't you continue that way? 

you mean to ask , "why did you fall?"?
For an explanation on my choice of username and avatar see my first post
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Re: Wake Sleepy up! 16 May 2022 04:25 #380764

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Shmuel wrote on 13 May 2022 15:23:

sleepy wrote on 13 May 2022 14:13:

itisfeelinggreat wrote on 12 May 2022 21:09:
Is it an assumption, or is it a fact?
It seems (to me) that you do not want to follow the Torah (Muser etc.) or psychology. 

its my life experience in a lot of cases , things or people i dont respect, justifilably or otherwise, do not have a positive influence in my life so why waste precious time going down such a road, let me go down the road that we are promised will work if we work it. 
now for a disclaimer:i do not belittle therapists or people who use and benefit from  them, kol hakavod, you have my blessings(unless the theripist is a woman) i just posted that no one should suggest to me theripy or phscologist things to me, im not interested wasting my time  reading them and thinking blah blah blah.
just curios, i understand your comment that you see that im not interested to follow physcology,i pretty much said that outright, but where are you inferring that i dont want to follow the musar way ,i pretty much said that i DO want to follow the musar way. are you writing sharp "ah bee" to write sharp?

Are you "working it"?

Did you not find ANY torah guidance on this site?

can you guide me to them please,ty.
For an explanation on my choice of username and avatar see my first post
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Re: Wake Sleepy up! 16 May 2022 05:33 #380766

sleepy wrote on 04 Jun 2020 11:07:
something id like to share:
Bereshis 1:14
AND G-D SAID:LET THERE BE LUMINARIES IN THE EXPANSE OF THE HEAVENS TO DIVIDE BETWEEN THE DAY AND THE NIGHT  AND THEY SHALL BE FOR SIGNS AND FOR APPOINTED TIMES AND FOR DAYS AND YEARS.

FOR DAYS:
If time continued in unbroken succession,men would continue in unchanging pattern.A quarrel would be forever,a sorrow would linger,and a discouragement or depression would drag on endlessly.Error would be perpetuated .The advent of a new day is a stimulus to new courage,to new understanding,and to new hope."The days are sheets ;to write in them that which you wish to be remembered for you"(Chovos Halvovos ,Cheshbon 11).Each day we make a new beginning,and we have an opportunity to do better than yesterday."Teach us to count our days"(Tehillim 90:12)to gain more each day,"that we produce  a heart (a mind)of wisdom"(ibid.),and the first(highest )of wisdom is the Fear of Hashem"(ibid. 111:10)It is a paramount function of man to note the passage of time ,in order that his days be utilized properly.The luminaries remind us of this.Thus"every day I shall Bless You"(ibid. 145:2);we thank Hashem  for each additional day that He bestows upon us to enjoy  His benefits and to achieve merit  of good deeds and wisdom.The dividing of time into days is a contrivance of infinite benefit,and the Creator designed this process with endless cunning  and boundless might. The rotation of the earth ,which is the mechanism of dividing time into days ,testifies to the Creator's great Wisdom,Power,and Kindliness.(The Beginning by Rabbi Avigdor Miller ZTL pg 38)
i highlighted some words
have a great day everyone!​

Was looking through some of your earlier posts and found this. Wow! You're asking for some Torah-based perspective, check out your earlier posts. This is great stuff.
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Re: Wake Sleepy up! 16 May 2022 06:40 #380768

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committed_togrowth wrote on 16 May 2022 05:33:

sleepy wrote on 04 Jun 2020 11:07:
something id like to share:
Bereshis 1:14
AND G-D SAID:LET THERE BE LUMINARIES IN THE EXPANSE OF THE HEAVENS TO DIVIDE BETWEEN THE DAY AND THE NIGHT  AND THEY SHALL BE FOR SIGNS AND FOR APPOINTED TIMES AND FOR DAYS AND YEARS.

FOR DAYS:
If time continued in unbroken succession,men would continue in unchanging pattern.A quarrel would be forever,a sorrow would linger,and a discouragement or depression would drag on endlessly.Error would be perpetuated .The advent of a new day is a stimulus to new courage,to new understanding,and to new hope."The days are sheets ;to write in them that which you wish to be remembered for you"(Chovos Halvovos ,Cheshbon 11).Each day we make a new beginning,and we have an opportunity to do better than yesterday."Teach us to count our days"(Tehillim 90:12)to gain more each day,"that we produce  a heart (a mind)of wisdom"(ibid.),and the first(highest )of wisdom is the Fear of Hashem"(ibid. 111:10)It is a paramount function of man to note the passage of time ,in order that his days be utilized properly.The luminaries remind us of this.Thus"every day I shall Bless You"(ibid. 145:2);we thank Hashem  for each additional day that He bestows upon us to enjoy  His benefits and to achieve merit  of good deeds and wisdom.The dividing of time into days is a contrivance of infinite benefit,and the Creator designed this process with endless cunning  and boundless might. The rotation of the earth ,which is the mechanism of dividing time into days ,testifies to the Creator's great Wisdom,Power,and Kindliness.(The Beginning by Rabbi Avigdor Miller ZTL pg 38)
i highlighted some words
have a great day everyone!​

Was looking through some of your earlier posts and found this. Wow! You're asking for some Torah-based perspective, check out your earlier posts. This is great stuff.

thank you for reminding me about that one 
For an explanation on my choice of username and avatar see my first post
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Re: Wake Sleepy up! 19 May 2022 06:42 #380905

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sleepy wrote on 16 May 2022 04:21:

Lustfull wrote on 15 May 2022 19:16:
Hi sleepy. First, I want to apologize if I was too harsh in the post.
Secondly, I feel your pain. It is hard to fight an addiction. I wish you much success in finding the right Torahdigga way. I will be happy to hear that you have found one, and maybe you will be able to help others...
 Thirdly, what has happened now if you have worked for 11 years? Why can't you continue that way? 

you mean to ask , "why did you fall?"?

btw i forgot to mention i forgive you and no offense taken 
For an explanation on my choice of username and avatar see my first post
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Re: Wake Sleepy up! 19 May 2022 07:53 #380908

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i just want to mention one thing that helped my marriage so much BH, and that was bitachon, not that im a great baal bitachon, its just that i heard shiurim on bitachon , and here it is . 
being the selfish american boy that i was  marriage was haveing its bumps and i was being polished not to only have sleepy in mind but to have other people in mind as well. in the early years i was dealing daily with working on Shalom bayis and every now and then the "D" word popped into my mind , and every once in a while  the D word popped into my wifes mouth,usually when she was very upset and when calmed down apologized profusiosly ,which didnt help too much for my hurt heart .anyway one time she had a siblings kids bar mitzva out of town and was hesitant to leave me for the weekend but i saw she really wanted to go so i encouraged her to go, ( i wasnt into P or M  or else i would have been more than happy to let her go! i was on the road of my 11 year clean streak) and she went leaving me with two little kids, she took the baby with her.
the kids were driveing me so crazy i really was harboring such resentment to my wife ,How could she have gone ,yea i told her to go but she shouldnt of taken up on the offer ! what a wife !(humpf!)
and i was starting to get really scared because the D word kept on coming back to my thoughts as much as i was trying to push them out ,until,  BH , my Rebbis words entered my thoughts as follows,"what do you think ,sleepy,that your happiness depends on the wife of your dreams and as long as youre married to HER youll never get happiness?your sad mental state , is it coming from her, or is it coming from  Hashem ?of course from Hashem ! so what are you thinking ,if you marry someone else  THEN youll be happy?! if Hashem wants you not to be happy, you aint gonna find happiness with someone else ,thats it! so stick with this one , and im yirtze Hashem if Hashem wants youll be happy with wifey as well , running away from your problem is not a gameplan."
my Rebbi ztl didnt actualy say THESE words but based on his shiurim , i took them and applied them to myself ,BH for the seichel.
BH that thought calmed me mamesh down and BH were married over 23 years and  have real marriage happiness.ken yirboo! (the bedroom needs improvement, but the bedroom is not everything)
anyway i really hope sleepy opening up will help at least one member .
hatzlacha !
For an explanation on my choice of username and avatar see my first post
Last Edit: 19 May 2022 08:03 by sleepy.
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