Dear INH -

Not to be too much of a pain in the proverbial behind, but...

I had a lot of knowledge, about myself, about the YH, and quite a bit about Torah - none of it got me to stop and stay stopped. The only proof I need is: I kept doing it. I venture to ask you: You (and any of us types) are already aware that acting out on lust is assur and bad for us in many other ways besides, no? Then what gives you, or any of us, the idea that more understanding or knowledge, especially of Torah, will help, at all? Hey, I knew a lot and I still violated lots of stuff I hold dear and meaningful - including the Torah - when it came to lust. Anyone who keeps acting out is doing pretty much the same. No? I promise, yiddle:  for years I was sure that I just didn't have enough knowledge and that If I only understood why I do this, then I'd finally be able to stop!. Well, as the AA big book (shockingly) puts it, "self-knowledge was not the answer". That is, any knowledge, even clarity about myself, won't necessarily help me stop and stay stopped, if I am an addict. (If you haven't yet, consider reading "The Doctors Opinion" in beginning of AA)  That's powerlessness and a humble pill to swallow. It isn't the Torah that is too weak to fight it, it is I who am unable to use the Torah and my very conscience properly to implement it. To me, that was incredible but actually a great relief: "You mean I simply do not have the ability to use and control lust? Oh. That explains a lot. Like an allergy. Thanks...Now could y'all show me how to live with that please?" I could finally relax and follow the directions instead of forging a new path and figuring it all out myself. And bE'H it is working.
I remember the days of desperately hanging onto every word of a shiur as though maybe this word is going to be the one that saves me and finally puts all this garbage behind me?! Not yet, maybe the next word will do the trick...and then going out after a few days or weeks and violating all the enlightenment!! Very frustrating for a good man. No one told me - "Hey, chump: trying harder and more enlightenment are not the answer. Just admit the truth you already know!" Now that's enlightenment. (Shiurim are more fun, now, anyway.)

No shiur, no vort, etc., was/is the real answer for me. Maybe for you, too? The beginning of the answer was acceptance of my total inability, attested to by my repeated failure, to use and control lust.

The failure is the only "shiur" many of us need. Then we finally become ready to do right, in a hurry. As it says in Brachos (Mishlei, really), "a hundred beratings (per rashi)/ beatings of the fool are not worth a single admission inside his own heart." It is hachno-oh that we need, not chochmoh. The chochmoh is probably already there...

Sorry to belabor a point we may just see differently. Perhaps the reason I am lot letting go is that it is dear to me. Maybe I am really just having difficulty surrendering and accepting that you have the right to an opinion! Sorry if that's it and I'll ask for help from you to knock it off. Hatzlocho -
Dov

bs"d

Great post. Thank you, Dov!

Dear Dov, I think you misunderstood INH. He wanted to hear a Shiur on the 12-Steps from Rabbi Twerski, who happens to be an expert in them...

But let me just say, I am SO GLAD that you misunderstood INH, because we all got another AMAZING post from you  ;D

Oy gevalt! Sorry...

Sorry, Shmorry. It was well worth it  ;D

I am going to choose not to respond to that rather large post for obvious reasons. But i will say that despite the post I am still in favor of a shiur. Its ok Dov. But i will say that I also want a general shiur and this is against Dov's post. It sounds like youre saying that a shiur will not help the problem. I could not disagree more. Dov, lets say we have this shiur at 12 oclock and "SHlomo decides hes going to listen. Now, he has 2 options from my point of view. He can listen to the shiur or do other terrible things. If this shiur stops him for one hour its all worth it. Maybe in the long term Shlomo needs more advanced help , but short term this shiur can save a life. Literally. And this example can apply to anyone. If I get Chizuk from this shiur and not do something terrible for one night, the shiur saved a life. Please dont belittle the power of speech. Lets get the shiur even if its just on a general topic about say Shmiras Aynayim/Machshavah. Dont heed to words of Dov, GUE. He is blinded by the light that he has reached. I cant see the light yet and maybe a shiur will show it to me. I just want to see a glimpse!

-INH

INH, of course you are right too, but Dov is focusing on REAL recovery, LONG TERM recovery...

So, the guy says to the judge: "He owes me $500..."
The judge hears him out and says: "You're right."
The other guy protests: "I never borrowed from him at all..."
The judge listens and responds: "You know, You're right!"

They both say: "Hey, judge, we can't both be right!"

The wise judge thinks and answers: "You know, you're right, too!"

- with love and appreciation ;D

Ineedhelp!! wrote on 27 May 2009 02:14:


INH

I will give you a glimpse of why I keep going back to my SA meetings.  At the meeting which I attended yesterday we read and shared from the White Book, from the chapter called "How I Overcame My Obsession with Lust".  The reading of this chapter is so powerful discusses techniques in overcoming lust in great detail, and the shares from other members with various degrees of sobriety amazing.  Addictions are known to be "forgetting" diseases, addiction is the only illness that will tell you, you do not have it.  I have to constantly go to meetings, work the steps, talk to other members and my sponsor on a regular basis.  For me listening to a shiur on the 12 steps simply will not work, they may for you but I am too sick for shiurim in isolation I need the whole package deal of face to face meetings, interacting with other recovering addicts at meetings on the phone, I need a sponsor to guide me through the steps as well as to discuss what’s going on in my life generally to make sure I am not resorting my old thinking, my best thinking got me to be a raving addict, I cannot trust myself so my sponsor constantly prods me in the right way.  If R' Twersky gives a shiur on the 12 steps I would love to hear it, to hear his perspective on it, but for me that on its own is not enough.  For me the 12 steps are not merely a onetime exercise to cure me, they are a way of life that I have to adopt to stay well, a way of life that comes from our Torah. 

I will give you a glimpse in my day how they worked today.  This morning when I woke up the first thing I asked Hashem for is to keep me sober today.  I called my sponsor before I started work and discussed with him what my plans for the day where and committed with him that I am going to stay sober, I also shared with him that I am experiencing cravings for masturbating.  During the day I found myself looking at women on the streets and in my work so I called another member and shared with him what’s going on, and surrender these obsessions. I also received 2 calls from members who were struggling. This is a daily working of steps 1 - 3.  My life is far from perfect and I have many areas that I need to work on. However on my own even with this forum which is amazing I would not stand a chance.  I believe that deep down each one of us know what we need to do for our recovery, there are many reasons to act out but no excuses, and if you feel that a shiur on the 12 steps is going to be what it takes, work it to your utmost but if not, read tool #15 from GYE Handbook as Guard so eloquently writes "Trying to learn the 12-Steps without a group is similar to learning brain surgery from a book. Anyone who wants to become a professional surgeon must join hundreds of real-life surgeries before they may be qualified to practice surgery on their own."

I will end off my Shabbos Hagodol Drosho by quoting from the White Book chapter How I Overcame My Obsession with Lust -

"How did I do it? I didn't. A woman in AA told me after she spoke in a meeting, quoting Chapter 5 in Alcoholics Anonymous that "G-d could and would, if He were sought." And that's how I did it. By letting G-d do it.  Because I couldn't. But G-d could and would - and did. But I had to go to meetings to learn things like "Meetings, meetings, meetings, meetings, meetings...." That's what they told me. "Just keep bringing the body". "Work the steps, work the steps, work the steps, work the steps," By going to meetings and working the steps; that’s how I did it.  That's how I learned to let the grace of G-d enter to expel the obsession."

May we all find the solution that works for us, and work it to our utmost to defeat this illness.
Hatzlocho.
London

Had a very near slip today but Baruch Hashem i closed out the window and my computer before anything could happen. My gosh that is a great feeling. For that one moment I think I conquered my Y'H. But he'll be back. He always comes back. And he'll come back even stronger next time. Ok i can sense him knocking on my door waiting to come in so I'm going to drain the noise out wih a shiur. Good night everyone.

-INH

What Tzadikim we have on this forum!!

Make sure to read - and IMPLEMENT - the tools in the GYE handbook. That will help you for the LONG TERM.

Hey fellow Jews,

Today is day 4 and I;m feeling pretty good Bli Ayin Hara, but I am cognizant that the Yetzer Hara is creeping up. He is staying silent so that he can make a sudden attack and catch me off guard. I'm trying to think about it so I can be ready for him. Everyone should should have a great, meaningful and uplifting Shabbos. Dont forget that the Gemara in Berachos says that Shabbos is May'ain Olam Habah. If we can get that sense of The Next World maybe it will help us heal and prevent us from sinning next time because we know what lies ahead.

Have a Great Shabbos
-INH

Hi all hope everyone staying stong,

I have gone back to my main thread in order to inform the Olam that ny 8 day journey came to an end last night in my sleep. I had a nocturnal emission. I was defenseless and on one I feel that this is the only way the yetzer hara can get me and on the other hand I have to start my count over. I was having some bad thoughts yesterday, but didnt act on them and immediately got them out of my mind. This may have contributed to the nocturnal emission. Another reason mght be because i hadnt had an emmission in what i consider a long time. My previous record was 11 days and the way that broke was also nocturnal emission (I had actually had 3 that night!). But either way I have to start from scratch and understand that this was in Hakadosh Baruch's hands not mine so I still havent looked at inappropriate images in 9 days. How should i react? Anyone haave any guidance for a perplexed Jew?

Thanks so much
- INH

I don't think this constitutes a fall per the rules for the Wall of Honor since you did not actively pursue it.  Guard, can you pasken?

INH HaTzadik! That doesn't count for anything. All Hashem wants from us is to do our part.

When the trecherous menuval sees that you're really serious about blowing him to peices and nothing else is going to stop you. He resorts to his cheapest trick and tells you that you fell when really you didn't.

(And BTW we can learn from him and if c'v we ever find ourself or someone else in a desperate situation wanting to give up; we can also use that trick and say that we didn't fall even if we really did and give the menuval a taste of his own medicine.)

BTW just a few days ago I saw the be'er heitiv brings from the SHL'A:ומיד כשנעיור יטול ידיו ובזה ינצל מהוצאת ש''ז